Tennessee and Ex Post Facto II
Recent case wins in the Federal 6th Circuit Court against the retroactive application of the Tennessee sex offense registration requirements have led some newspapers in the state to write of dismay. The worry is that the State will spend monies to defend itself against thousands seeking relief from the over-reach of the application of law. Long the beacons of shining light on injustice and hailing the restoration of justice, it is odd to see newspapers instead focus on bean counting.
The issues have long been known to people forced to register. The registry started as a simple and mostly discreet tool for managing very select information. It required little action by the individual on the registry with non-compliance consequences equally minimal.
In Reid v Lee, the 6th District Federal Court notes: “In the ensuing decades, however, the Tennessee General Assembly repeatedly returned to the sexual offender registration statutes to change whom they reached, what they required, and how much protection they offered to registered offenders’ privacy.”
In Does v Snyder (2016 Michigan), the same court had even stated that what “began in 1994 as a non-public registry maintained solely for law enforcement use” but “ha[d] grown into a byzantine code (overly complex) governing in minute detail the lives of the state’s sex offenders.”
There is the problem at hand. Today’s registry has no resemblance in substance, purpose, or consequence in the event of a failure to report timely, accurately, or often to the registry examined in the 2003 case Smith v Doe by the US Supreme Court (SCOTUS). That ruling defined all registries as civil and non-punitive in nature which has resulted in legislatures enacting more requirements, more punishments in the event of a failure to comply, and more retroactivity.
No citizen on the registry in this country correlates the ruling in Smith v Doe with any aspect of their life on the registry today. It is particularly unrecognizable for those whose convictions pre-date the changes that made the registry what it is today.
The rulings in the 6th Circuit reflect the type of reasoning needed for the Nov. 13 hearing for the Ex Post Facto II Lawsuit in Tallahassee. It may take several wins for Florida to achieve similar justice, but that makes the support in each of those cases so critical.
ALL sex offender registries do is create a second class citizen for politicians and law enforcement and lets face it – the rest of society to sh^t on. Might make them feel superior and provide a false sense of security by cancelling us BUT it’s anti-American!
[moderated]
I am sick of this hypocrisy and dare anyone to show 1 single instance where a single child has been saved (“if it saves one child…blah…blah…blah). Can’t be done.
However, I can show nearly countless cases where the hit list as been used to shame the children of those forced on the list. I can show you cases of humans being murdered for simply being listed on these useless hateful hit lists.
Anyone who profits from this anti-American list is more sickening than the most vile person listed. The Books are shinning examples of this.
Yes, the registry is a government blacklist of “undesirables”. And, as such, it is a form of government-sponsored hatred! (We are doxxed!)
It is opposed to the notions of the founding fathers – those notions of “liberty” and “justice”!
It subverts Liberty by drastically lowering the bar for abridgments of constitutional protections! (Liberties)
It subverts Justice by erasing mercy and falsely swearing that an unending punishment is but a mere civil administration!
It is a cancer and an unholy stain on our nation!
One does not bandage cancer – one EXCISES it!
@ Sex offender truth
And where in the constitution does it allow people to put bumper stickers on their cars (Trucks mostly) stating “Kill your local sex offender/Predator? Murder is murder and what is even more odd, it is not that person victim placing those stickers on their cars but people who most likely have no connection to the offender.
Allow we are not a protected class, imagine if we put a sticker on our car stating kill your local (add in any race, creed or religion).
The whole idea of criminalizing discrimination was shot once the idea of “protected classes” became a part of it. All that did was say “Discrimination is perfectly okay as long as it’s directed at the right target.”
And it’s so easy to show the discriminatory nature of registry law. Just substitute the word “black” (or any other “protected” class) for “sex offender” (or whatever term used) in any given registry scheme
Excellent point, Dustin!
Let us make a point to do that, as often as we can… let’s substitute race and religious perjoratives whenever we see the poisonous term “sex offender”.
Let’s see what we can stir up!!
(There is really no such thing as bad publicity, as long as we spin it. After all, these lying sobs can do it, why can’t we or shouldn’t we?!)
Every offender who has a family and children has experienced public harassment, and covert attempts to undermine their ability to survive and remain a family. Community members literally change laws and bylaws, lie to wives, and harass their children to force them apart. I’ve experienced it first hand, for nearly 30 years now.
Any way to get a quick recap on what happens if we win. I know that the whole registry getting abolished did not survive previous motions. However if we win on all counts and it stands. what changes for us.
Tearfuleagle
Just my thoughts on some previous registry removals, unless the entire Florida registry is ended (Which I doubt they will go that far) you will still have to hire a lawyer to get removed which is not reasonable financially for most registrants.
My thinking is they may agree to dial it back to the original 1997 law, where you register once and then make any changes in person/online as needed. Problem with that is, making that info public.
Also the state of Florida is going to fight like Hell because so many people will lose their jobs and funding lost for the state. The registries around the nation created 1000’s of jobs an untold millions of funding.
I know a few people in Michigan who are caught in limbo and still do not know if they are required to register or not, nor do their lawyers. And where I live, even if the registry was removed, the cops would still come and harass me and remind my neighbors about my charges.
If FAC is successful there will be an immediate appeal filed by tye state guaranteed. If any changes ordered actually happen, it will probably only affect older cases would be my guess. I’m sure that state will ask for any changes to be stayed unill the appeal is done would be my guess. I’m not a lawyer. But im just guessing here.
It would mean that any law passed after your conviction date would not apply to you, creating an enforcement nightmare for a State like Florida who has, since 1996 passed a new law almost every year since. Laws passed by local authorities such as county residency restrictions would also only affect those convicted after the local law was passed.
Then what would happen to people who came here in say 1998 and was convicted in another state even before Constitutional laws? Does this apply to them also? I mean FDLE really doesn’t care what the courts rule these days they just make up lies to get around the laws to punish us.
Hmm, So i was under the impression that only a couple Counts survived the first motion. It had something to do with travel and the definition of a day. Maybe I am wrong. I want you to be right as I am way before we had a registry. Here’s to you being right. 🙂
How many states would this judgement affect? I have my fingers crossed so tight and about 1000000000 prayers a day that there will be a path way off for me. 1 year of probation has turned into 21 years of a nightmare of registering. Dumb lawyer, oh just take the plee it’s just a year probation and a 250$ fine and it’ll be over before you know it!! Ya right!!
From what FDLE’s emailed to me stated that when I established Florida residence in 2006 and registered as a sex offender…. blah blah blah… Well this is how they are going to try and get away with the 2003 B.S. Federal laws cause I first registered on Dec. 02, 1998. BTW, Congress is prohibited from creating Ex Post Facto laws how can FDLE be able to enforce it? BY LIES! I’ve been in talks with 2 well known New Jersey Attorneys who may take my case proving that even with the 1995 Doe vs Poritz ruling of “Due Process” which was affirmed by the 3rd Circuit that Florida exceeded my civil judgement with public notification ( Public Humiliation ) when the ruling was for it not to be made public showing that it became an extension of punishment. I registered the other day with a big smile on my face cause this will be shown to a Federal Judge that it was made public record. As they have attempted to say that it is non punitive this will now prove it is. Lets just hope I can live long enough to go the distance.
Allan
I feel the same way. I am almost 60 and disabled and my health is getting so bad that I figure at this point, my end to registering will be when the Lord welcomes me home.
God doesn’t allow people in Heaven to Haunt anyone but if I could, I would be all up in the registry judge’s dreams, not allowing them a night’s rest until they rule in our favor LOL
CherokeeJack >>> Hang in there my friend we will have our day against them.
I have been saying for years that no state registry resembles the one ruled civil in Smith v. Doe beyond its name. I’m relieved that FAC is finally reflecting it, and hope other advocates follow suit soon.
Regarding future court cases, I suspect it would be more effective to argue Smith inapplicable, since every single characteristic that the Smith court listed and explained had since been legislated out by virtually every law making body in the US. The current approach trying to overturn it has failed every time it’s been tried.
As long as courts allow law makers to “Sneek” in changes each session, sometimes teetering on insanity, they will continue to argue none of it is punishment. I would like a judge to come live in one of our homes for just 2 weeks and see how long they last.
Name any other group not on probation who has law enforcement coming to their door randomly to yell out that they need to be reminded they are a sex offender for life and must comply with all the gifts the law has bestowed upon us. I won’t repeat the list of 100s of requirements, hardships and horrors we all suffer daily, weekly, monthly and beyond, as do our families.
I couldnt agree with you more. Its absolutely ludicrous. We hired Attorney Ron Kleiner to help us. Its tiring to try and remember all the restrictions, rules, regulations. Frankly its sickening.
@KK
Yes, Ron Is awesome. I wrote an article on F.A.C about him a few months back and I highly recommend him. My case is complicated by numerous factors, so for now I will remain on standby mode.
With God’s blessing and Ron’s expertise, I am praying for a miracle.
KK …Cherokee is right in many ways and yes they will argue that its not punishment but is it rebuke. Is it preventive or punitive or even collateral damage type ordeal. Still it is unjust in many ways..
What got me and ASCOL in disagreement is one of the articles of some prosecutor saying “Because we can” to Janice and Janice got upset when I told her that she didn’t know how to handle the situation at the time Of course the Judge rebuked the prosecuting attorney for that remark.
See the authorities are established from God but when they ask someone to sin than that changes things a bit. Yes they knew what they were doing in many ways. See I ask them why they wanted me to come down and meet and the person said to talk dirty to them. They knew that was wrong and although they were giving me an option.
Are we not suppose to obey authorities?… Two wrongs don’t make a right. We could talk about Paul’s experience on the way to Damascus but I believe you get the picture.
I have spoken with dozens of lawyers and have had exhaustive conversations with the Pacific Legal Foundation over the possibility of SORNA proper being enforceable against me even if my state removed me from my obligation in my state. It took an entire foundation, and countless texts, calls, and emails to other attorneys as well to come to the conclusion that I am no longer required to register under SORNA, federally. NONE of them could say this with absolute certainty even after making a concerted effort to ascertain it. THIS in and of itself makes SORNA void for vagueness, because a person of average intelligence is supposed to be able to determine how the law applies to him. Clearly in most cases it is extremely difficult, and likely impossible. This creates a circumstance were arbitrary enforcement is likely. Joe US Marshall does an audit, and sees Offender X is no longer registered in Hawaii, but under SORNA he is required to register, So Joe US Marshal has an all expense paid trip to Hawaii to bring said offender to “justice”. Said offender is completely oblivious because under Hawaii law he’s perfectly legal. This is happening across the country [moderator’s note: citation(s) needed].
I would be in favor of a standing yearly Temporary Injunction fund to immediately file a TI on any new craziness. Wonder how much we would to have in and it be an Idea for FAC to look at.
the crazy part is stories like mine i was charged in 1992 i was 15 the victim was 14 did 13 years got out at 28 and is required to register for life because the victim was a minor they refuse to look at the fact i was a minor as well. cant even petition to get off even tho i been out for the 20 or 25 year mark because i got locked up for driving on a suspended license in 2009.
Derrick
Was that in Florida? That is insane, usually in a case with ages for basically children of about the same age, you would have maybe at most gotten counseling. I know stories of adults who actually were 18 and there girlfriend was 16 and they fell under Romeo and Juliet law and or just got probation or even just a diversion program and ordered to not contact the victim at least until they turned 18 and could consent on their own legally.
This is what drives me crazy. One judge will send you to prison for life and another judge for the same charge will give you 20 years of probation for the same offense. I saw that in prison as many shared their sentences with me. Some were doing 2 to 3 years and others were doing 12 years or more for the same charges.
Some say it is how good of an attorney you have and even though that helps, I know from first hand experience the judge you get has a ton of weight on your outcome. I tried to get off probation with the same judge that sentenced me and she ruled with a Soviet mentality. Two years later I got a re-hearing before another judge and even though the probation office and prosecutor denied me getting off, the judge said I had done “More than enough time already”.
yes it was in fort myers florida and i had a public defender so you can guess how that went. so much more into this bizarre case that’s behind the scenes but was released in 2008
Derrick
Don’t feel bad, I spent $20,000 on a good lawyer and still got a 30 year sentence. He did go back on appeal (Took 10 years) and got the rest of my sentence tossed but that cost another $8,000)
You could have the best lawyer money can buy, but if you have a stubborn judge, you might not have a chance. My appeal was with a new judge and even against the prosecutor and probation officer’s pleas, he stated I had done more than enough time for someone with an otherwise clean record.
Most people don’t realize the average age a sex offender committed their crime is 14, and male. I’d be willing to bet there are ZERO 14 year old females convicted. Not that they didn’t commit the same acts but that what judge/jury will convict a precious little 14 year old girl. Hundreds of thousands of peoples lives destroyed over the governments use of sex to stir up hysteria for their benefit. Its absolutely the modern day witch hunt. When the judge sentenced you, or the DA offered a plea, they knew the circumstances of the case, and should have punished or sought conviction based upon their discretion, and if they didn’t then they were not performing their jobs in a manner conducive to the fair carrying out of justice. Creating a permanent punishing scheme after the fact is contrary to fairness. End of story
@ John Doe
Tough on crime , no matter the cost and families left heart broken, torn apart, separated and destroyed. Winning is all many prosecutors care about, not someone actually being innocent.
Think about it, defense attorneys want everyone to be innocent and prosecutors want everyone to be guilty. (My humble opinion).
Good luck and God’s speed next week to all our Patriots fighting for freedom. I pray God finds favor in your speech and moves on Judge Hinkle to rule favorably.
I also read the ruling in the motion to dismiss and it looks like the Travel language and the Day language is what survived. These would be big wins.
Lastly was thinking of writing some senators to come up with a bill that would allow all changes and travel to submitted via the web portal.
I welcome all thoughts and corrections
Settling for web travel registration might be a setback for thousands of registrants who remain internet restricted. And there’s no evidence that travel registration contributes to community safety or that such surveillance is worth the cost.
Tearful Eagle is right that a favorable ruling (or even an unfavorable one) will likely spur lawmakers to act, and we will need to be ready. We’ll just need to have a consistent message.
Look I am not saying we should have any travel reporting, heck for those before the registration law , we should not have to do anything and those before 2014 should only have what was in effect at the time and same with those before 2018. And no one should be on for life. I
What I am saying is that if we do still have to report travel and since we do have to report changes in vehicles owned; if we have computer access we should be able to take care of it through the portal.
Also we know the legislature is going to come up with some new stuff why not ask for something that would make it easier on us. I do believe that FDLE was wanting this as well at least the vehicle reporting
Happy Sunday!
@Tearfuleagle
When I was on house arrest, I had to fill out a sheet every single week with every move I made. Going to church, work, gas station, grocery store, the bank, all had to be reported. Any deviation from that could cause a violation.
I fear eventually, as they push the limits to what they can get away with, we are headed in that direction. Heck while I was on probation, it was the probation officer who approved where you lived and I was never denied any place I chose. Yes some of the neighbors did not like me living there but I proved to them they would move before I did as I am a pretty resilient person.
There is a neighborhood about 10 miles from me where a guy bought an entire street (Over the course of a few years) and only rented to registered people. As more and more registrants moved it, it got easier to buy and even got some of them cheaper as the prices dropped off.
Not sure if he still does it, but there use to be a guy who would take an entire van load of registrants to register.
I understand the whole probation thing I did 2 years 23 days and 8 hours between county and state plus 9 years 11 months and 13 days on probation. I got off early 1 month 10 days and not for lack of trying. I went back at my five year mark and was denied and it was due to actions of John C.
However my comment above is really geared toward 1. Being prepared with a TI and 2. we always oppose bills why not ask our legislators to enact one that allow us to list Travel if we still have to after Judge Hinkle’s ruling and allow us to list changes in vehicles to avoid trips to the office.
I don’t believe Florida’s registry has a whole we be ruled ex post facto until we get 1 or 2 more circuits to join the 6th. At that point I think SCOTUS will have to revisit the second generation add On’s.
Never forget the Fifth and Sixth Amendments. You can invoke your rights to remain silent and to have an attorney present during any questioning by LE. When LE has done address verifications in the past and I haven’t been home, they’ve sometimes asked where I was. I always ask them if I am in custody and that I want a lawyer appointed for all questions. Thus has always ended the interrogating about my travels.
@Just saying
The deputy who comes to my house places a flyer on the door if I am not home when he comes. It can be seen from the street. One time when I was not home 3 times in a row, he left his card stating I would be in big trouble if I was not home the next time he came by.
Every cop is different. Some just want to do their jobs with as little hassle as possible. Others are zealots.
Will the court case tomorrow be televised or on audio of some sort?
Does anyone have any idea how our case went for Does bs Swearingen in northern district in Tallahassee? I haven’t heard anything.
We are still waiting on the attorney to tell us what is okay to post. We do not want to post anything that could jeopardize our case.
Yes Please do not do that. LOL. We are praying for a Christmas Miracle.
Thank you for the update! That makes perfect sense.
In other words, the case is still on going?
So the government and apparently civilians can pose as minors and cause criminal charges against unsuspecting individuals, in some case against minors themselves no doubt. I am absolutely certain these people inadvertently reach out to young people thinking they may be predators. There good intentions should be no more of a defense than anyone on the registry was provided, in many circumstances the offenders were minors themselves. Here is a recent sting conducted by a civilian vigilante group. IMO they should be investigated and charged with soliciting a minor if they inadvertently contacted just ONE minor in their searches, which with absolute certainty they have. As well, if it is a group of people and someone is organizing the whole thing, and they are communicating instructions to one another they are communicating lewd instructions to someone posing as a minor. This should have the same effect on them as it would have on their unsuspecting targets, even though they know the age of the person posing as a minor it is not a legitimate defense to the crime of soliciting a minor. As well. if any of their children have unprotected cell phones, then they should all be charged with providing pornographic material. The internet is the envelope, its as simple as opening up a website/envelope. Make them all register as sex offenders and let them see how they like it.
https://original.newsbreak.com/@cyndi-lenz-1696947/3304393715542-predator-poachers-child-sex-sting-leads-to-arrest-of-port-st-lucie-man