Georgia sex offenders take fight over ‘no-trick-or-treat’ warning signs to 11th Circuit
[FAC NOTE: WE are in the 11th Circuit. A win here is a win for Duval County and the others that have this absurd law]
A group of registered sex offenders have asked the appeals court to overturn a federal judge’s ruling in favor of a sheriff’s office that posted signs telling trick-or-treaters to keep away from the offenders’ homes on Halloween.
A class of registered sex offenders asked an 11th Circuit panel Friday to overturn a federal judge’s ruling allowing Georgia sheriff’s deputies to put warning signs on their lawns before Halloween.
The Butts County Sheriff’s Office has argued in legal briefs that it was merely trying to protect “unwary trick-or-treating children from coming face-to-face with sex offenders” when it began a policy in 2018 of putting signs in front of the homes of every registered sex offender in the county.
An attorney for the plaintiffs told a three-judge panel of the Atlanta-based appeals court Friday that the sheriff’s office “turned one of their most important rights on its head” by forcing them “to bear [the sheriff’s] opinion on their lawns.”
But attorneys for the sheriff’s office say the signs convey government speech, which is not subject to regulation under the First Amendment.
What is the punishment if registrants remove the signs from their property? I hope that the plaintiffs win. All this makes me wish I had studied law in college.
BWJ
I don’t know the fine but if you remove one, I will give you a Trophy lol
I wasn’t trying to play truth or dare here, but I would keep removing anything placed in my yard. And I keep telling myself that I am grateful for leaving Florida.
BWJ
it is a trap anyway. If you leave it, your house , cars and property might get vandalized. People driving by would post it on social media etc.
But if you remove it, you face jail time. I guess I would wait until they left and “Accidently” run over it with my car, then pick it up when no one is looking and tear it up , put it in a bag, and drop it in a dumpster far away from my house.
And since our cameras are self monitored, I wiped the hard drive each day once I know no hoodwinks and shenanigans have taken place.
Many years back, Before FAC existed, I saw a news cast of someone who was a recently released sex offender. The neighbors got together and put up a huge 4 x 8 plywood sign that read something to the effect of “Caution, sex offender lives on this street”.
Eventually the city made them take it down as they did not have a permit, but it worked anyway as the person moved, as did his ENTIRE family who had lived there, their entire lives. Neighbors turning on neighbors. Niceeeeeeeee
Yea stuff like neighborhood shaming continues. I find it especially troubling when notification is designed to incite fear. Which I guess is what the signs are intended. If a sign ever did show up I would perform an act of civil disobedience. Actually I wish I could perform a Harper Valley PTA and return the favor.
I’d erect a 4 x 8 sign with, “ So much for love thy neighbor, Hypocrites!!” I’d have flashing lights around it.
Brandon
I think you did not buy the new progressive standard modern updated edition of the Bible of the church the revolving door.
It says “Love they neighbor, unless they are a sex offender”.
Another verse reads “Forgive those except those who are on the registry”
(So I don’t get called out, I am being facetious)
CherokeeJack
Church of the Revolving Door, so what’s their Cross? Photos of revolving doors at malls, hotels, and other places where all are welcomed with a sign, “ not if you are one of them.” Church of the revolving door can kick the curb, sit in a landfill, and I can continue my life with revolving options.
I’d be more concerned what happened if you set a sign on fire. Wouldn’t that be destroying government property? I’d erect a sign with the registry doesn’t protect you, abuse happens between those you know. Burn baby burn your registry signs on fire!!
BWJ
I just thought of something, somewhat brilliant. Recently FAC posted a story of someone who took their case to court over scratching “Sex offender” off of their driver’s license. He won I do believe. Couldn’t whatever logic or strategy that lawyer used to win, be applied to sign case as well? Very similar as they both are meant to further embarrass us, shame us, and dare I say, punish us.
Brandon
Or replace your picture on the sign with that of the sheriff of that county LOL
You would be in big dookie but might be worth it. I think even the judge might get a laugh and our attorneys would say ” Now you see how the registrants feel”.
CherokeeJack
Sheriff Long wants to be a pain the butt with these signs, so why not be a pain in his. My name is and I’m a pain in the butt for Butt County!!
Didn’t some Fl. counties put up red signs with a registrant’s name living on this street?
It seems there is a lot of debate between these judges.
May not be a violation of the 1st amendment, but is clearly a violation of personal property. To place something on one’s property for which is not your own, can violate civil laws.
I am sure they put them on the public right of way. Which is about 33 feet from the center of the road. Most people don’t actually own half of “their” front yard. Watch YouTube “first amendment audits” for some info.
Jack
When I worked in law enforcement, I had to go to fights between the city and the homeowners all the time. You own and maintain all of your property. However, by law, parts of it, mostly the medium strip between the sidewalk and street, can be used by the city, county etc to place utilities and such.
Try not mowing that strip you think you do not own. Either your HOA or your city can fine you for not maintaining “YOUR” yard.
Also look at the official survey document from your sale. It shows what you own and any easements. I had a neighbor have an A/C unit installed half way into my yard. I called code enforcement when they wouldn’t correct it and come to find out, they never got a permit. They got a huge fine and had to have the A/C moved from my property. They tried to argue the property between our houses was public domain.
Jack
Also with your thinking, I could come to your grass strip on the street in front of your house and put a for sale sign, a yard sale sign or Elect Jack (Both of us are named Jack) for Mayor.
I am sure you would immediately take it down would you not?
And even if the signs themselves were not illegal, the labeling of human beings that have done their time with hateful signs is actual sick. Whoever came up with that should have a sign put in their yard that I am sure I am not allowed to type on here and would get “me mouth washed out with soap by me Mum”.
Duval county’s law is a clear violation of the first ammendment concerning religious freedom. The verbiage of the statute says any “nationally recognized holiday”. So no Christmas, Hanukkah, Easter etc decorations on the outside of the residence. Having a manger scene,, or a menorah in the window would be grounds for arrest. I honestly don’t know how this has never been challenged. And as far as Halloween, the porch lights being turned off should be sufficient as a deterrent, period. It works for anyone else who isn’t on the registry, should be no different for one who is.
What’s the justification for a sign near someone’s property, so what’s the point of the registry? I thought Halloween was like Christmas for registrants to lurk behind bushes and hand out candy to lure children. Only time a kid was killed on Halloween was in 1973 by someone not on a registry and known to the victim. Where are signs of those with DUI and reckless driving convictions? If only those properties had signs cause kids are more likely to get hit by a car than getting molested or raped!!
Brandon
I always got beat up and had my candy taken. So one year I walked around with a pillow case filled with dog crap. They ran down the street after grabbing my bag and reached in to get the candy while mocking me. Hope they liked chocolate. Needless to say, I had to run for my life but it was worth it as I laughed all the way home LOL
We moved the next year (Dad was in the service and was retiring) so that was the end of that.
I guess I would be a pissed off Sheriff’s as well, if I was the top dog in a county named “BUTTS”. Don’t put that on your Resume’.
What if the sheriff places the sign in the public right-of-way outside the property line? Because that’s what they say they’re doing, if you read the article.
Is the sheriff trespassing on the the public right-of-way? Does the registrant have the right to remove government signs from the right-of-way?
These are the sorts of questions the court has to consider and why it may not be the slam dunk that we wish for.
Jacob
I’m not being negative but from what I’ve read those signs seem to be on the public easement, so the lawsuit probably will set bad precedent. Hopefully I’m wrong and it won’t be the first time. Why does the sheriff need to put up signs when people can look up red dots before and on Halloween? Are signs extra protection to these people? Oh look a sign can’t stop here.
Brandon
Also, it pretty much ruins Trick or treating for the kids. Even without a sign, the neighbors blame me every year for ruining their kids joy. I am like “Lady, first off avoid my house, Go with your kids, and why do they play in front of my house, on the street the rest of the year and they haven’t been kidnapped, but on Halloween I turn into a Ghoul?
Add a sign to the mix and instead of Halloween you are going to create chaos and protests. Then the stupid biased news shows up and parks in your driveway and starts filming your house, showing your registry page, tells the public how to look us up. Then the vigilantees come out of where ever they hide during the year.
But I apologize because the law says the registry is not punishment, so I have to be a good little robot while my house is burned down. Nothing to see here folks, move along.
CherokeeJack,
I think if that future scenario plays out as you describe, we’ll be heading to Revolution 2.0. Hopefully not, but I don’t think a million people will go down that quietly. The first one started with less than that.
Anonymous
First off, love your name because it reminds me of the hacker group. Not sticking up for hacking but we could use them about now (Use your imagination lol)
But to what you said above, if all one million of us walked to the white house and chained ourselves to a fence………………..
Well what we would like to see happen if only a fairy tale. We would most likely all end up with Federal charges and they would build a massive new prison just for us. (Hope it has those new 100″ flat screen tvs at least)
Jacob….Not Necessarily The Case…From the ‘Article’, that has NOT BEEN ASCERTAINED…
So, Therefore, Any Reasonable Person Can Assume, that ‘They’ Littered The Neighborhood with Stupid Paper Flyers and that They Placed Signs in a Land Owner’s Property and They Illegally Entered a Landowner’s Property
Thank You and Have A Nice Day!
TruthandScience, have you read the pleadings from the District Court? Those form the record on appeal.
If You are Not a Ward of the State or Federal Government, It is called Trespassing, Littering, and it is illegal Graffiti, which are normally Misdemeanors in most State Jurisdictions…..If you have a security gate around your residence, well you can add ‘Breaking and and Entering’, which, too, is a Misdemeanor, But Sometimes a Felony, in Most State Jurisdictions!
Every Present and Past Judge, That I have spoken to About this and other ‘STUFF’, they always tell me, ‘You are Probably right, just make sure it is balanced with Statutory law!’
Happy Holidays to All!
I just don’t see how this would affect Halloween sign laws in Florida. It’s a different set of facts.
In Duval and St John’s, FL, registrants are compelled to erect a sign on their own residence.
But in the present case, the sheriff places their own sign in a public right-of-way.
If anything, I would think Duval-St John’s registrants have a more compelling case than this one, but we’d need to raise the funds. $25k I guess.
Butts County is saying that tis is “government speech” and as such, not covered whatever that means. But, if you are compelled to put up these signs in Duval. wouldn’t that be “compelled speech” and as such, even worse? I wonder what would happen if you added your own little editorial content, like “the registered sex offender who resides at this location is of the opinion that the sheriff is a big (add your own vulgar insult here)
JoeM
The difference is, reporters (Many anyway) will go to almost any lengths to get a story. Someone I once spoke to at the registration office was telling all of us a story about how he had 20 no trespassing signs on his property, a fence with a gate and cameras.
And yet the news showed up, entered his property and was banging on his door while filming after his arrest. When he called the police, the officers did ask the news to step to the street but the damage had already been done. AND of course they always hide behind the “Freedom of the press” like it is a free pass to do whatever, whenever they want with immunity.
And I am still pissed that when someone who is filmed and ruined finally is found guilty, almost never is that a story, nor get an apology from anyone. If you force the issue they may print a small update in the “shoes for sale” section of the newspaper.
Meant to type “found NOT guilty”
Every one of the state’s arguments in this case is back-tracking.
Originally, they were posting the signs on the properties. The right-of-way argument was made only after the matter ended up in court, near-certainly by the sheriff’s lawyer.
Originally, it was “A public safety message from Sheriff Gary Long.” Then it was his personal speech using his own first amendment rights.
Originally, registrants were subject to arrest if they discarded, alters, or posted a competing sign. But they later claimed no intent to do so despite the flyers delivered to the registrants at the time.
The only law that Gary Long likes to enforce is “I’m the sheriff and I say so.” While a relatively small matter, little wannabe despot dictators like him need occasional reminders that their authority has a lot more limits than they believe.
Dustin
To that point, a lot of these Sheriff’s are tough on crime (Which is a by itself a good thing) and say their Deputies will walk through fire to catch the bad guy.
Having said that, I have been the victim of crime at least 19 times since being on the registry. In all but one case, I was told “File a report online”. So for us they will not walk on fire but might walk on our arrest records? Maybe spit on them for good measure.
Statistically, Gery Long has sex offenders working for him in his office. Let him think about that for a minute.
Some here have asked, “does Duval compel speech” on Halloween?
Yes, that’s probably our argument.
But we won’t argue it unless we raise funds for expert witness fees, transcripts, and filing fees.
I could see FAC Legal opening up a Duval Halloween Challenge fund if they perceive sufficient demand. They would have to pick a county (Duval? St John’s? Clay?) to come after in order to create good precedent.
And then the internet trolls will argue, “they just want the right to hand out candy,” in the court of public opinion.
Personally, if I am going to help fund a challenge against a specific county, I would start with Brevard. I would be more than happy to hurt the Brevard administration, even though I have no connection to Brevard, just because they make me mad every time I hear through FAC about how Brevard treats people. In Brevard it’s far worse than just putting up a damned sign.
In a way, I feel bad for the sheriff of Butts County. At events, he has to introduce himself as, “hi, I’m the Sheriff of Butts County”! I would hate having his job.
I don’t feel sorry for the Butts County sheriff. Hell use this to raise funds for the next election. “ Vote for me as the county sheriff I’ve been tough on crime, most importantly perverts. I’ll continue to be a pain in their lives. “
So he’s a pain in the Butts? Sounds about right.
Could be worse :
“Sheriff Buford Pusser was born in town of Finger, in McNairy County, Tennessee on December 12, 1937”
All kinds of things wrong with that. Pusser is bad enough of a name, and a town named finger? Can’t make this stuff up.
If you think this real sheriff sounds familiar, Watch the movie “Walking Tall” made after the Real Pusser.
And just for fun we have: Sheriff Buford T. Justice is a fictional character played by Jackie Gleason in the films Smokey and the Bandit (Not related to Buford Pusser) But might be related to me somehow LOL. Or maybe that was Barney Fife.
I actually have the Dwayne Johnson remake of Walking Tall in my library bag behind me as we speak. Best corrupt cop movie is probably still Training Day. Got Denzel his Oscar finally.
Things like this make me wish the founding fathers had worked more elements of the Magna Carta into the constitution. A lot of the problems in this country are because so many of the people running it don’t follow the rules and laws they enforce.
Vindicated
Anymore, the Constitution is just a piece of raggy old paper that gets walked on, spit on, torn, burned, thrown away, disrespected, and used as toilet paper by some so called people.
The founding Father’s were not fortune tellers so they couldn’t know this would happen. However they had faults as well. IE Slavery comes to mind? Killing native Americans and putting the rest on reservations. (Thanks for the casinos by the way)
Funny/ironic how many of the people doing these types of things are the first to cry about how the OTHERS are trampling on the sacred Constitution.
I am Not So Sure, The Attorney, That is Handling the Case, “Sliced It and Diced It, Properly”
There are Other, More Important Issues, To Have Been Addressed!
Oh, Well!
If ever one of these signs found its way into my yard it would immediately find its way into the trash. Not yet happening in Brevard.
Capt
In the 10,000 years I have been on the registry (Ok since it was invented) I have never had a visit about Halloween. We, as far as I know are not banned from participating but are encouraged not too. I stopped doing Halloween when I was around 12 years old anyway. It wasn’t as fun once I had to actually BUY the candy to give out HAHA
But as long as those cities, counties etc get away with placing signs in yards, more places will move forward with them. I remember when I was on probation, my probation officer told me a new law was being proposed to require sex offenders on probation to have a bumper sticker on their car stating they were an offender. Not sure what happened but I never saw it materialize.
When you see these Sheriff’s that do the stings, and make news on how tough they are on offenders, other Sheriff’s take note and many of them jump on board with a new idea to help them get elected. No one is going to remember a sheriff who never makes the news. But one that is the Squeaky wheel gets noticed. When you got to cast a vote and you see two candidates on the ballot and say “hum who is Joe blow” then look at the next one and say “OH I yeah I remember Grady Judd, He is that tough on crime guy”.
Nebraska used to have your mug on billboards. Welcome to Nebraska, Home if Arbor Day. Watch out for these people. Nebraska’s capital building nickname is Pens ( add a letter to Pens) on the Prairie!!
Brandon
Now when you say “used to have your mug on billboards” did you mean ME? If so drivers would have been crashing all over the place if my photo was on their LOL
Was a static billboard with just one person or one that changed digitally to show rotating photos? This @#$% like that is getting out of hand. I would have no issue with me being on it if I was a wanted person with a warrant, but for someone who has done their time, that is total Bull ship.
CherokeeJack
I don’t remember specifically when the state of Nebraska engaged in billboard mugshots, just remember being told about it from my sister in law. I would say it was in the late 90’s, early 2000s and stopped soon after. Probably in my trunk of Nebraska statues in my basement.
Capt
Only sign I’d place in your yard, “ Honorable Capt. Lives here. # Blessed of your service and continued service for Freedom.”
Brandon, thanks for your comment. I served because I love this country and I love my family and friends and our citizens in general. People helped to make this country great, and some people are trying to destroy it. Law as it is practiced today is not law as our founders intended.
Well, you may very well have to prove that if this case if Ga goes in Butts way. The difference between saying something and doing something can be quite a challenge.
LPH, if I say I’m going to do something, I do it. I do not fear political hacks or law enforcement if they are in the wrong. Want to know fear? Try landing on an aircraft carrier.
Eh, I was on a sub sitting on the sea floor in the Sea of Okhotsk with Russian trawlers roaming above a few times. Now that’s scary. Look up Operation Ivy Bells. I’m in Ga so I may very well be affected by Officer Butts ego too.
Why is this conversation sounding like the scene from Jaws where they compare scars? Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I, sadly have no stories that compare.
If this sticks then every person affected by these laws should place signs in front of police and sheriff offices of the below individuals stating “These people were charged with protecting your children’s safety, but instead violated that trust by having one of their own charged with committing a sex offense while employed by this office.”
Lloyd Aiello, Whigham Police
Brent Powell, Cochran Police
Gregory Graham, Foulton County
Forest Park Police (unnamed)
Paul Wiggins Jr., Rome Police
and this from “The Morning Call”
GEORGIA: The Georgia Peace Officer Standards and Training Council decertified 2,800 officers, 161 for sex-related misconduct. Law enforcement agencies must report to the state when an officer is arrested, indicted or convicted, or suspended for 30 days or more for misconduct. The state has broad discretion to strip a license. Georgia said some officers decertified in the 2009-2014 records may have later regained their licenses. The AP found about a dozen officers who had their licenses revoked for sex-related misconduct listed as certified on a state website in October 2015.
Sounds like GA has a hypocrisy issue on their hands.
It would be awesome to have links to those articles Anonymous.
I don’t know, I moved away from Seminole county so do not know what they do anymore. I try and avoid that county unless I am passing by on I-4.
I am trying to get our house declared a Sovereign nation . If I become the Sheriff of my county, sex offender laws will not apply on my sacred reservation. I could call it Cherokee County since Florida doesn’t have that. Seminole county, Florida is named after the Seminole tribe why can’t I name mine Cherokee county. I will send you a bumper sticker that allows you to visit me on my huge 2 acre village LOL
“I am trying to get our house declared a Sovereign nation .” Maybe we should try doing what Key West did in 1982. See
https://conchrepublic.com/our-founding-in-1982/
To: Just saying
Years ago when I worked, had some money, and travel was only partially a hassle for offenders, I would take an overseas trip to a different place every year. One year I visited Copenhagen Denmark. If you take the Ferry across the river from downtown, there is a sovereign nation there called Freetown Christiana.
Although on occasion the Danish police do a walk through, the citizens who live there are basically left alone unless it is a major crime like murder. Most of the people I saw living there looked like a scene out of Woodstock from the 1970s and they were stuck there in time. LOL
And even if I was accepted into a Cherokee nation tribe, I think I would be bored, I am a bit spoiled. I am not the “Live on the land” type of person but do have the Cherokee spirit of Adventure from my great grandmother, bless her soul. Sadly with all the new restrictions on us over the years, I have become a hermit. I spend most of my day reading and responding to FAC posts HAHA (I am getting Bunions on my tush from sitting so much)
Yeah Cherokee I get the hermit thing. Before I fell I had thirteen years as a janitor for a really big company. Once I got out, I had to basically learn a new skill, so I apprenticed myself to a surveying company, and now I have a new start career at a desk. People always say the guys who worked out their whole bid tend to put the weight back on once they get back to real world food, and going from running track a couple days a week to supplement a cardio heavy prison workout to sitting at a desk 50-60 hours a week and ordering takeout, I’m a good bit heavier than I was when I fell.
I thought the registries were supposed to protect children. When then are signs also needed? Maybe because the registries protect no one?
Hmmm…..
This all boils down to targeted messaging based upon a sheriff’s personal and emotional bias. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with protecting children – It’s just another attempted power grab and to test the waters even further to see what they can get away with.
If the courts side with the Sheriff, what’s to stop him from requiring the sign be up year-round? Which I’m sure is his endgame.
I will tell you this with 100% honesty, if they put a sign in my yard, I will probably chain myself to the door of the sheriff’s office and make them take me out.
We have done our time and PROVED we are no threat. I had just one incident in my entire 60 years of life and now suddenly after 31 years have passed I need to be further punished?
And for God’s sake, there are people even more deserving than me to NOT be on the registry. I know people who never touched anyone but just looked at photos online. And some of them got more time than me for actually engaging in a sex act. There are people on the registry that were homeless and were seen using the bathroom in the woods by an officer and caught an exposure charge. Why should that person be forever labeled a sex offender?
Think about a guy and his girlfriend (Both over 18) getting caught by the police having sex in their car. Should they be labeled sex offenders? And yet I am sure that has happened. Even though only the officers saw them, it is considered a sex act in public. No college for you.
I was going to say it would take a judge to have their kid get labeled a sex offender for their to be change. Then I thought that naw, they would just have it swept under the carpet with their magical judge powers and make it go away.