Clements v Florida at SCOTUS
After seeking a waiver from having to respond, being prompted by the Court to file a response, and then needing an extension, Florida’s long overdue defense to this case was filed.
Clements filed suit claiming that Florida’s lifetime sex offense registration requirement put the individual in “custody” and subject to habeas corpus. Their petition stressed that a person is ““in custody” when subject to restrictions that “significantly restrain petitioner’s liberty to do those things which in this country free men are entitled to do.””
Florida’s defense rests on 3 arguments:
1) that the lifetime registration is a collateral consequence to being convicted of certain crimes and not part of a sentence.
2) that the proper time to file this suit had long passed.
3) that 7 out of 8 district courts ruled that being on a registry is not being in custody. The one ruling that being on a registry was being in “custody”, that state (Pennsylvania) had much stricter registration laws than Florida.
The defense punted on the topic of residency restrictions as something not to be addressed by this review.
The arguments made by the State downplay the hardships of life on the registry. The full range of requirements and frequency to go in person to a registration office are sidestepped. This is clearest with travel. The State argues they don’t approve or deny travel, but no mention is made of the need for in-person registration at the local sheriff for each trip. The State also fails to acknowledge that the burden of the registry grows every few years as new requirements keep being added.
If SCOTUS chooses to rule on Clements, defining ‘freedom of movement’ will weigh heavily on the outcome. Are people on the registry free to move about and live similarly to those not on the registry? That would be quite a debate.
We all know the Registry has gotten out of Hand and has life changing CRIMINAL not civil Penalties. Its worse then Probation as it NEVER ends in Florida I have had the Registry effect everything from my ability to find housing to Travel (Been returned and Banned) I have lost Business deals and even had people not Rent because of my Status. I was told I couldnt even get into a Hospital to see my Niece be borned as they scan your DL and Offenders are not allowed!. I Panic everytime my License is requested. I had 1 Bar tell me after looking at My FLorida DL that I couldnt eventer!. How can anybody believe this is like having a Samsclub Or Costco Membership. I dont believe any Judge who would experience the Registry in FLorida would believe its not Punishment. Its never ever expanding and different counties use it to make up there own local rules. Its time these retroactive lifetime punishments stop! I hope Scotus does a new analyses on this as the previous is not relevent and uses false science. It has set many bad laws and precedent’s
This year I have had to give a full itinerary for my travel. When driving across country you don’t exactly know where you will stop each night and they won’t allow you to say either Louisiana or Mississippi… I’m not on parole nor probation and the requirements treat me as such. I might add that Florida is trying to exert authority outside of their jurisdiction. Once you leave the state they have no jurisdiction over you and if your itinerary is subject to change it’s not their business.
In my opinion, we need to get every single person who is forced to register in the US to sign a petition for redress of grievances and present that petition to the US Congress!
Half-measures are anathema to our fight for our liberty!
It’s a shame they chose not to add the residency restrictions as that is one of the major pieces that makes this law punishment and therefore puts us in custody.
Unfortunately he did not bring residency up in the initial lawsuit. He stated and “all entails of the registry” but didn’t list this as a separate dispute. And since he filled pro-se he maybe could have have a better start with legal help behind him. But we still have a shot.
I think we need to set everyone up to file pro-se all at one time (Even family members who are affected). We need to flood the court systems of this nation!!
Imagine tens of thousands of lawsuits across the nation all at one time!!
Not to dump on JJJJ, but imagine tens of thousands of court rulings that all say “denied.”
The courts can do that, you know.
Courts have the tools to deal with a flood of filings. Among those tools are delay, denial, and the precedent created when those denials are upheld.
What we need instead are proper arguments made on behalf of the best plaintiffs, proven by qualified expert witnesses. Anything short of that risks creating bad precedent for tens of thousands of others.
I share JJJJ’s wish that there was an option to simply take down registry schemes expeditiously and in one fell swoop. But they’ve already been tried.
Yeah, Jacob, I know you are right.
But there are about 1 million of us right now. There must be something we can do. Image 1 million people saying, “Hell no!” (all at one time).
@JJJJ
If there was a very expensive lawyer that would take on the registry covering all 50 states and each one of the million just gave $1 that would be One million dollars for a massive fight. If we lost the case, all we lost is a dollar. (Money wise anyway)
The has to be a magic formula some lawyer can make work.
@CherokeeJack
That’s an excellent point.
I wonder if we could sue at the federal level?
I still think, though, that a well-written petition, signed by every affected person and presented to the US Congress (and various other dignataries simultaneously – both nationally and internationally) would get some action.
But we’d have to get everyone on one list, nationally.
Jacob
That happened a few back with FAC. They had filed a case and then an individual filed the same case and FAC was worried that if that person was denied, it could mess up the FAC. I do not know what ever came of it but remember someone from FAC telling the person to please wait but they didn’t agree.
I was at the registry office in Hillsborough County last week. There was a guy there on Monday who was originally there the Friday beofre. He (came back) because they told him he couldn’t report his travel on Friday because it was too soon. It was longer than the 48 hours minimum you have to report beofre he was to leave on Monday. So he was basically restricted to leave. If that’s not a restraint on his movements I don’t know what is. He lost the weekends travel because he had to go back on Monday to report it. So you tell me if we’re free.
Wow!! So true. So true.
Pariah
I wish we could secretly wear a body cam when we go into register. Then force the personnel into court and show the lies by playing the hidden camera footage. Most of the time that won’t hold up in court because they didn’t give their consent, yet people have gotten cops fired while beating a suspect and filmed by the public.
The deputy who comes to my house won’t even come to our door because he does not want to be on camera (We have security cameras and I suggest everyone get them). And if they start giving you grief, remind them, they are on your property and being recorded.
I use to work in law enforcement and can lay my hand on the Bible and tell you, cops will and do lie to cover their behinds. And many of them make up fake laws that don’t exist. For example, stopping to harass a homeless person sitting on a bus stop bench and telling them it is against the law to sit on the bench if you are not going to ride the bus. (Might be selfish but not against the law)
You do realize you can record them in their element secretly without their knowledge? You don’t need video but merely audio of the interaction with the right equipment to pick up everything. The cop shop is a public building paid for by taxes which means it belongs to the people, including those doing business therein.
How are Registrants “Free To Move” when the registry … AND Court sentencing… specifically Dictate, not only where Registrants “may Not live”, but where they may travel “without undue delay” ?
Also just realized, not only are registrants directly instructed where they can’t be or remain without undue delay, but they also may not travel to other countries what have similar registries… which is a lot of countries. So, they’re essentially imprisoned by the registry restrictions…
Jake
Isn’t there something in the U.S constitution about the freedom to travel (if you are not on probation)?
I do not know of any other convicted felons, even murderers who are not on probation who are banned from traveling “At will” with no restrictions or “Checking in” with authorities.
I might be wrong but if a father who is a convicted murderer wants to go to a school to have a meeting with the teacher about his childs grades, I think they are allowed since it is a school function based on a parent teacher conference. But someone with a sex offense would most likely have to do that on a phone call or zoom? So we not only have restricted acesss out of state but even have “No-no” zones in our own communities.
Courts have noted : “The Articles of Confederation’s privileges and immunities clause explicitly protected the free ingress and regress to and from any other State.” (Copied from constitution.congress.gov)
What about any of this does not scream Punitive in nature? I can understand things like an ex-felon no longer being able to own a gun and having a record for life, but how much can you throw at a person and allow them to even still feel like a citizen of this country? (Or even want to)
I’m not sure that habeas corpus could ever get anywhere because we are not held in an incarceration facility like a jail or prison and that is what the courts are seeing.My personal view to attack this issue is the ‘inalienable rights’ and also ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ which we are denied liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Inalienable means ‘unable to be taken away’ but they are taken away from us and thereby urinating on the constitution and downright refusing to abide by what it clearly says under the ‘we have to protect the public’
maxim which the constitution makes no provision for.
Correct me if I am wrong, but there is NOWHERE in the constitution that disavows the right to liberty to a felon once they have served their sentence-they are free with no restrictions and NOWHERE do I read in the constitution that there is a blanket clause that allows an exception to freedom after incarceration such as ‘we have to protect to the public’.
All too often I hear that phrase and it is used to circumvent the constitution, just like law enforcement use the phrase after shooting someone ‘I was in fear for my life’ in an attempt to circumvent any consequences of their actions.
Either our rights are ‘inalienable’ which would include freedom of our movement or every copy of the constitution needs to have that wording removed.
They cannot deem us as second-class citizens either, because their is no provision in the constitution that would allow any court to do that.
We can ‘un-citizen’ our self where we don’t pay taxes, but we also lose all American rights and this is done by our own application and free-will.
We are either Americans who enjoy all rights enjoined to us by the founding fathers of this nation, or we not Americans at all and have no rights at all.
DVC, I think you’re correct in most of what you wrote. However, courts DO recognize that a person on probation or suprvised release are considered “in-custody” for the purposes of habeas corpus. This petitioner, Mr Clements was neither incarcerated nor under a term of probation or supervised release. The courts have made post-conviction relief nearly impossible to obtain. It’s become increasingly rare for a conviction to be overturned on any grounds.
JS, you and I and all others hope he wins.
i truly believe it’s a long shot.
I would also argue against florida on 1) where they say ‘the registry is a collateral consequence and not part of the sentence.’ Whatever the judge hands down and it’s mandated requirements IS part of the sentence e.g., if someone is convicted of domestic violence and it is written in the state law as a requirement that the offender take 1 year of Anger Management classes then that IS part of the sentence because it is mandated by state law and is NOT a collateral consequence.
With florida’s kind of reasoning they could say probation or prc is not part of the sentencing but a collateral consequence.
I am sorry but HORSE HOCKEY! I have not set foot in Florida since 2004 (19 years) and still my travel is limited – both domestically and internationally.
The only reason for this is that I am still listed on Florida’s outdated, inaccurate and purely punitive “sex offender list”.
I can’t even use AirBNB because Florida lists me! I have difficulty renting an apartment to this very F^ing day. If nothing else Florida is most definitely guilty of cruel and unusual punishment!
And you and your family (all of us in Florida on the registry) will be punished after you die as they continue to get funding for people registered well after their death. Takes an act of congress, a letter from the Pope and a sign off on it from Judge Judy from the people’s court to get removed even after death. (Being sarcastic but it is in fact that hard to be removed)
If it’s not too late, I could be used as an example. I work for an offshore supply company based in Louisiana and travel for work constantly. Meaning I have to go register in person every time I fly in and fly out. My company has overseas boats as well that I haven’t even tried to work on due to international travel restrictions. Louisiana allows me to send an email when I come and go. I am definitely restricted in my field of of work and if my situation helps, I’m more than willing
@ M.Sturgeon
Blessing to you and your family. You are fortunate to have a good job, many of us couldn’t get a job shoveling manure on a cattle ranch because of our charges/past.
“Most” of us prove every day that we have stayed out of trouble for decades and not re-offended, yet the official’s comeback is “Great, that means the registry is working”. The registry tears families apart and scares neighbors to move for no reason other than the lies the registry portrays against us.
CJ – I hope you tell them that is not proof the registry works unless the purpose is to punish you. I thought the purpose was to stop sexual offense. If that’s the purpose it’s not working at all.
I would like to see a discussion on the freedom of movement topic..This isn’t just a Florida issue but a country wide and international issue as well! . The IML which is just anouther residency restriction an not only targets citizens on the registry for banning from country’s BUT also for discrimination and criminal mischief. It also targets legal spouses restricting their travel and restricting whom a person the registry is even allowed to marry!! the entire registry is a torture and punitive tyranny!
@Obvious
I have seen several people who spoke with overseas officials and their reply was It is not us, it is the United States telling us to ban you, we would love to have you but not up to us.
Yes, that is exactly true and I’ve been told many times I was told I was welcome back anytime if I could stop the Alert I was told to come back when it was raining so the computer was down and they could let me in the country was told in Spain twice that they wouldn’t even come to meet me and asked me the stupid questions unless the US had requested it that was one day later they were on holiday. They wouldn’t even come the US funding to many countries. Nobody wants to be the guy that goes against the US so the wink wink denied this guy, but is exactly that I denial , the only time I’ve seen them Look at the notice, and specifically let me in because the US told him not to was Nicaragua! I guess at the time relations weren’t very good, and they wanted to stick it to uncle Sam for whatever the reason
@Been
I use to travel out of country every year and it was always a nightmare coming back. Interrogation, even if my family was with me. Holding me so I would miss my flight home and breaking things in my luggage then laughing at me.
I still endure it until they came out with the denial of entry campaign and that ended it for me and I burned my passport in protest.
I agree, but I’ve also seen the power of the filings I was told by my attorney who was quite respected in my area that there was nothing else that could be done with my sentence when I was in prison and I disagreed, and this guy cost me over $80,000 Yet I was able to work at the law library Pay a guy literally $200 worth of Raman Noodle soup and file my papers with the appeals court, and actually not get a win, but be able to have my previous charges completely vacated and resentenced with the best possible outcome under the situation not all judges are unsympathetic to the mistreatment, false accusations, and bad representation we often get and pushed into plea deals for things we didn’t even do even with my charges, I never dreamed I would have more and more rules, stipulations, and regulations that would affect me for the rest of my life add on every additional year
@Filed
I did the same thing but was held for 3 months without access to law library. Once I did, I filed and judge sent me back a nasty letter stating too much time had past and no re-hearing would be held. I spoke to 12 different lawyers when released and when they heard who the judge was, they declined to take the case.
I entered into a contract with the state of Florida. The state has added clause after clause to the contract long after I signed. Since the state is the one who negotiated the contract in bad faith, I feel that I should be frred from that contract with no harm to myself as I have abided by the terms of that contract.
I feel that anyone else who may also have entered into a contract with the state should also be granted relief from the bindings of their contract as well.
When the state argues that this isn’t right, it should be explained to them that these are the consequences of their actions.
Also, one could argue on any case (driving while intoxicated, just as an example) that one was not aware that it was illegal. When the state brings up that “ignorance of the law is not a defense”, they should be told that WAS true up until they started retroactively applying laws. It should be explained to the state that this is…..
… wait for it…
….a collateral consequence.
Tell me the error of my logic.
Jim
I am adding funds to your campaign for a run for President LOL
If Trump can run with a felony, so can you and you got my vote brother 🙂
(Not trying to throw in politics, just stating we need someone, somewhere, somehow to get us out of the spider web)
* Thanks to all that F.A.C does for us BTW
Jim, I totally agree with you because the State (in making the following argument) is acting in a fundamentally dishonest manner.
But, here is the argument that the state would make in rebuttal (I think), and this has been, unfortunately, upheld by the courts:
The contract terminated after all of the sanctions were performed. (Fines, fees, court costs, restitution, prison time and probation time.)
The contract has been legally terminated because the convenants therein have been performed by both parties.
The fact that one must perform a civil registration (as sequelae to that contract having originally been consumated) does not alter the original terms or conditions of the original contract.
Apples <> Oranges (apples do not equal oranges)
But the state is acting dishonestly because they are saying that the apples are the criminal sanctions and the oranges are the civil (non-punative) sanctions.
But we all know that the registry is, in fact, a (rather severe) punishment.
So, their argument, while currently upheld by the courts, is absurd (nonsense). It is a dishonest, slanted, flawed argument!
I am not going to single out one person on this discussion on this article but there is a principle that everyone is missing in all this registry romper room bs. The spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
This supreme court says that the Clements guy waited to long or he is not under incarceration. So how long does one have to wait for the truth to be revealed? The residency restrictions well we don’t know if within that area that children might be at risk. What a bunch of crap the supreme courts are dishing out to the public scorn another.
Would this resident restriction be like saying a bank robber can’t be living next door to anyone as they might peradventure to rob that household out of all their goods.
This registry and this lifetime of probation is a type of punishment and is taking advantage of one’s true justice and one’s liberty in many ways. Much of this registry is a basic abuse of the commandments, even an abuse of love thy neighbor. Is this registry a man controlling man downfall by government authorities. How ingenious..
The Florida predator registration became law on October 1, 1993. The sex offender registration on October 1, 1997. So anyone who was on probation or incarcerated prior to 1993 were forced to registered in 1997, even with a conviction date prior to 1993. But it appears that no offender has ever challenged Florida with a conviction or withheld adjudication that was prior to 1993.
Here is Clements reply https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/23/23-107/288970/20231106175430055_23-107.Clements.reply.pdf
So did SCOTUS agree to hear the case?
No, not yet
First it has to go to conference
Then if 4 justices agree that this case is worth hearing then it will be a supreme court case.
@TearfulEagle
I believe the process of deciding whether or not to hear the case is call “granting certiorari” or “denying certiorari”.
Here is a link to the SCOTUS docket for Clements:
https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/23-107.html
@Just
Thanks for that link
Looks like it going to conference on 12/1 according to the docket https://www.supremecourt.gov/docket/docketfiles/html/public/23-107.html so usually they release the decisions that Monday unless one of the justices ask for a stay to drum up more support from other justices who may be undecided and needs more time to think about it.
So I guess come Monday the 4th of December we will learn the outcome. Now we just have to prey that our plea will be heard.
And if we win I still am unsure how this will effect us at the end of the day since they’re not asking for the dismantling of the registry but to challenge the lifetime of being burden by it.
The good news is, every state in the U.S citizens on the registry are going to keep flooding the courts with law suits if it take 100 years to get someone to listen.
The facts are, no other people not on paper/sanctions are required to comply to 100s of sanctions/laws/rules/ordinances and more. And they not only affect us, but our families, including our children and grandchildren who are not allowed to play with neighbor kids because they get beat up because someone in their household is a registered sex offender. The courts and law makers have that blood on their hands.
Just read it. Very good Petitioner’s arguments. Praying SCOTUS grants cert. 🙏🏻
(And Wow! “McDermott Will & Emery” – a real powerhouse law firm! No joke! 😳)
Yes it seems to be a great law firm. Really loved this part on page 8:
“Once a federal claim is properly presented,” as is petitioner’s claim that he is in custody, a party before this Court is “not limited to the precise arguments [he] made below.” Hemphill v. New York, 595 U.S. 140, 149 (2022) (quoting Yee v. City of Escondido, 503 U.S. 519, 534 (1992)). Rather, the “traditional rule” is that parties may expand upon and refine their arguments, so long as they are fairly subsumed by the question presented and raised “to support what has been [a] consistent claim” before the lower courts. Lebron v. National R.R. Passenger Corp., 513 U.S. 374, 379 (1995). See also Citizens United v. FEC, 558 U.S. 310, 330 (2010) (applying this rule). There is thus no barrier to the Court considering this point.“ and since his initial argument of “At every level of review, petitioner has argued that he is “in custody” within the meaning of Section 2254, not just because he must appear regularly at the sheriff’s office, but also because of “all the other restrictions that come with being a registered sex of- fender”
So there is still a way to take a look at residency restrictions even tho the 11th said no. So this makes our custody case a lot stronger. Since exclusion zone render you from going to nearby areas. They use the figure 1,000 as the standard state example saying it bars you from 72 acres but in reality very few areas seem to be 1,000 feet any more. It’s more like 450 acres (a square mile is 640) if going by the 2,500 foot line I wish they would have used a more extensive area.
So 7/10th of a square mile is off limits in some jurisdictions, not only should the registry qualify as custody it should be argued that it qualifies as banishment as well.
And it all comes down to are we allowed liberty to do those things which in this country free men are entitled to do” (Jones, 371 U.S. at 243)
and we all know the answer to that question.
“1) that the lifetime registration is a collateral consequence to being convicted of certain crimes and not part of a sentence.”
“Collateral consequence” sounds like a sneaky and flippant way to minimize the punitive aspects of the registry – which is exactly cruel and unusual punishment.
@Facts
I want the judges and law makers to look into the faces of their relatives who were on the registry and killed in a targeted manner that this is not punishment. Please, please come spend a month with us and see what we go through and then tell us it is not punishment.
This encounter with the supreme court should tell everyone in the U.S.A that their is no true justice in America. Sure courts can do what they want..”Because we can” even pervert justice as
in this Clements vs Florida ordeal.
Actually this article is a good study of how the Supreme Court is laying aside truth and values with their own rules that pervert and creating conflict today for many. In many ways its a mockery of Justice.
Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to compare this to the civil rights movement in the late 60’s. So whats different the perversion of it all by man’s justice to control others actions and yes actions can be good or bad. This whole registry conning is more of a type of conspiracy one may say.
There never has been true justice in this country because it is subjective. It is a legal system, not a justice system. Justice means something different to everyone.
With the death of Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O’Conner the Clements case has been pushed back to the 8th https://certpool.com/dockets/23-107
Supreme Court denied the petition today.
@Kyle
Well, back to the drawing board?