10-year-old student may face battery charge after hugging school counselor
A 10-year-old boy was suspended from his Florida elementary school and faces a charge of misdemeanor battery after he was accused of inappropriately touching a school counselor during a hug, an allegation his family denies.
The counselor at Holly Hill School in Volusia County alleged that she was visiting a classroom on Oct. 24 to discuss something when the fourth-grader approached her for a hug, according to a police report and a copy of his suspension letter provided by attorneys for the boy’s family. She said she “turned sideways to give a side hug,” the letter says, and the child put one arm around her shoulder and with the other hand “reached and grabbed her left breast.” The counselor said she removed his hand and he walked away, the letter says.
The child’s family disputes the counselor’s version of events. Attorney Rawsi Williams said the boy says it was the counselor who initiated the hug. “All he did was go up to hug her. It was nothing more than that for him. He then went back to his desk, talked with his other football playmates,” she said.“The next thing he knew, the teacher calls him up and accuses him of having groped this lady. [The child] denied it, but even with him denying it, they still suspended him. They still called the police on him. The [counselor] still told the police that she wanted to pursue criminal battery charges against this 10-year-old kid.”
I’m sure whoever investigates this case will be more than happy to add his name to the registry. Life destroyed at age 10 over a hug… nice.
Even though this needs to addressed, a 10 year does not need to be on a registry. Well none of us do, however, it is hard to cope as an adult on the registry, imagine a kid now never being able to play with their friends, because they will not have any thanks to a registry if put on it.
This is whats wrong with this country, everyone goes to the police for every little thing.
Amazing how a hug turns into both something racial and sexual. And at the diabolical hands of a 10 year old. At what point does the trained professional realize awkward hugs happen. No malicious intent. I hope this counselor is sent to Siberia as her part in this insane story.
I doubt racism contributed to anything. But, I agree that it’s overblown: either the hug was misconstrued as a grope or IF the child did cop a feel, needs to be addressed outside the legal system.
This happened in Florida, so she’s already there IMO.
Police state…check
Human rights, what human rights?….check
Run by a megalomaniac who thinks it’s all about him…..check
The Justice Statistics in both Canada and in the United States show that people who have Drug Offenses Re-Offend at 80% and Higher and that both people who have Homicide Offenses and Sex Offenses Collectively Together Re-Offend at 5% and Lower. Plus according to Statistics from the Innocence Project 90% of all Sex Crimes Cases and 85% of all Homicide Crimes Cases Lack the Direct Physical Forensic Evidence for Adequate and Proper Prosecution Beyond Reasonable Doubt and with Moral Certainty because of the Very Low Forensic Standards for Violent Crimes in North America Hence the Very High Rate of Wrongful Convictions among those Accused, Prosecuted and Convicted of both Homicide Crimes and Sex Crimes Collectively Together.
Another example of making mountains out of mole hills. This should have never made the news. This should have been handled between the teachers ,the student and his parents. Period. The child may need some sex education on being more careful and why.
The teachers should have been adult enough to recognize that. Are they not in that position to teach. If not they need to get in a different profession.
Sounds to me the counselor might be the at fault , think about it this way why would this boy initiate the hug ? If as he says the counselor initiated it as he comes up she turns sideways and he was not expecting her to do so that would end up with his hand in the area of her breast hmm sounds like a counselor trying to get attention to me. But as well know SHE says he initiated the hug and in flaw I duh if its he said she said then she wins
A grown-up counselor who feels groped by a pre-pubescent child, tries to get that child arrested for it.
You’d have to be pretty bad at your child counseling job to do something like this.
The race angle was completely unnecessary to add t the idiocy of this story. This woman shouldn’t be in education if she reacts like this to a simple hug and what was likely an accidental brush. Even if deliberate, there are any of a number of better ways to handle it than to call LE and press charges.
I hope she finds another profession. She clearly doesn’t have the temperament to work with young children.
Dustin
When I was around 11 years old, I lived in Charleston South Carolina (That was where my Dad was stationed in the military at the time).
The school I went to back in the early 70s was really rough and they at the time were allowed to use paddling as punishment. (They still might)
You got a choice of 3 licks with the paddle or 3 days suspension. They did not need your parent’s permission. Most of us took the paddling because parents were not notified so they did not know you got in trouble. Unless of course you took the suspensions.
I got jumped by a boy way bigger than me but instead of realizing I got jumped, we both got the paddle for fighting. There was no fight, I got my attacked twice. One by a bully student, then by a bully teach/coach. And no this was not a ping pong paddle. These were full sized oak cutting boards with holes drilled in them. I had to stay home for 5 days anyway because after that I could not walk.
The lesson I learned was trust no one, do not talk to anyone and stay to myself. And my point of this was, we have gone to spanking kids to sending them to jail? I would take the paddle anytime over that.
That is the problem with this country. The government wants to dictate how we discipline our children, saying spankings are abuse. I strongly disagree. There is nothing wrong with spanking a child so long as you don’t cross the line into abuse. My daughter has had plenty of spankings. Never left bruises of course, but they served the purpose, and she knows better than to try to report us to the police.
I don’t know where the verse is, but even the Bible says “Spare the rod and spoil the child”.
I think most of these kids that are out running the streets and being disobedient to their parents would wise up very quickly if the parents would start meting out spankings.
So very well-said, Disgusted in Michigan. Kids have no fear of being physically and verbally abusive to teachers in this day and age. They know they cannot be effectively punished and they smear it in the face of every authority figure who should by right be able to “wear their butts out” whenever and wherever they behave in a disrespectful, insolent, or dangerous manner.
You sound like one of my generation. I’m 53 (will be 54 in March). I remember the days when a kid throwing a tantrum in the store over being told no would get his or her butt spanked right there in the aisle in front of God and everybody. Or worse yet, do you remember this? Dad firmly grabs your arm and tersely pulls you close and whispers in your ear, “Wait till I get you home!” In that bye-gone era, the kid KNEW his butt was going to get “beat” when he got home. The anticipation of the expected spanking was sheer torture. The kid may have had to wait from morning until evening to get back home and receive the punishment “Wait till I get you home!” stands for.
WC_TN
When I was a boy in Charleston, South Carolina, you were allowed to be paddled in school with cutting boards without a parent’s consent. You got 3 licks (Whacks) with the paddle and sent back to class, or the other option was 3 days suspension with a letter sent home to the parent(s).
Most of us took the paddlings because at least at my house, if I got suspended, once my dad read that letter, I got beaten anyway. Didn’t matter if it wasn’t my fault, he didn’t want to hear it. So, we took the school’s beatings because that was not reported to the parent. We just had to come up with an excuse as to why we were suddenly walking funny.
Also, back in the days of our parents and grandparents, in rural U.S.A. everyone knew each other in these little rural tight-knit communities. If you acted ugly and a neighbor caught it, they would tan your hide and then call your Mom and Dad and tell them they whipped you and why. If it was bad enough, the neighbor might whip your butt and then grab you by the arm and firmly march you home to your parents and report you in person. THEN you REALLY GOT IT GOOD. Back in our parents’ and grandparents’ day, embarrassing your parents with bad behavior in public was something that was not tolerated to the least bit. This same thing held true for the school staff and teaching faculty. They knew your Mom and Dad by name and face. Word travels quickly. Get my drift? If you acted a fool at school and got sent to the office, parents found out through the grapevine quickly and you had some explaining to do when you got home. Some kids lived under the promise that if they got paddled at school, they got another whipping when they got home. Back then, parents didn’t dare tolerate their kids misbehaving in school. Back then when the new school year started, parents mostly told teachers “If he acts up, you don’t have to call me. Take him to the office and paddle him.” Tell me when I’m lying.
This thread went from “… there are any of a number of better ways to handle it than to call LE and press charges” to condoning physically beating children. Really guys??? Physical abuse is just that, it’s physical abuse and by condoning it you present the real chance how some of us later on used anger to commit our sex crime. I did. Anger and jealousy motivated me to commit a “sex” crime against my own child. There was no sex assault, there was no rape, there was no sex motivation… it was all anger and jealousy. Please stop it with thinking physical beatings on a child is OK. It wasn’t OK when we grew up and it’s not OK now.
instead of filing charges on a child need to stop employing incompetent school staff. typical of the new american propaganda and indoctrination system
Unfortunately if this does go to court and lands on the bench of a judge with common sense and would see it for exactly what it is his hands have been tied by the legislature who think they know better than the judge who has the person right in front of him
Very good point. More and more bills are being submitted and signed into law that strip judges of every last shred of discretion. Case on point: There is a bill working its way through the legislature in TN that if signed into law will not allow any charge of aggravated rape of a child (molestation of any child 8 years of age and under) to be pled down to a lesser charge if there is eyewitness testimony to the event.
In TN the penalty of aggravated rape of a child (which prior to 2019 was reserved for the sexual abuse of children 3 years of age and under) is mandatory life without the possibility of parole.
Another provision over which judges lack discretion is sex offender registration.
Wouldn’t the Registry only come into play if the case was waived into adult court?
OK, I have been reading this story in the news, Florida Action Committee, Acsol, etc., and I have a few points, and opinions, about this situation.
1. Many people have been vilifying the school counselor for reporting the incident. But what else could she have done? If she had stayed silent, then word would have eventually got out that her breast was touched by a student, and she didn’t do anything about it. Some would then imply that she wanted him to do it, and others would jump to the conclusion that she has done it in the past. Thus, painting her as a child molesting school counselor. I am sure that in her state she is required by law to report any sexual impropriety that she observes…and this time that included herself. Also, what if she had witnessed this same boy touch another teacher’s breast, or that of one of his fellow students? Should she have just remained silent in those situations? Of course not. She filed the report because she is absolutely required to do so by the state. Imagine if she was actually a male and the same thing happened but with a female student that touched his crotch. If that were the case, then that male counselor absolutely should report it to save his own skin. In my opinion, she filed the report to save herself from being falsely accused at a later time for covering it up.
2. The fact that this ten-year-old boy might face charges is ludicrous. That is unless Florida is lowering its age of consent. Let me explain. Let’s assume that he will be charged by the DA. This child is then being viewed as a person that is responsible for his sexual behavior and actions. He is receiving the same course of action as he would if he were a grown man. Basically, he touched a woman’s breast without permission. That indeed is sexual assault throughout the country. However, Florida would now be looking at this ten-year-old boy as the perpetrator, not the victim, and they throw the book at him. But let’s turn the tables. What if next week that exact same ten-year-old went to counseling again, and at the end of the session he asked the female counselor if he could touch her breast. If she allowed him, should SHE be arrested for sexual assault of a minor (or whatever it is called in Florida)? Well, the state has already made up its mind regarding treating the ten-year-old as being responsible for his actions. So, in the hypothetical situation, how could the state then reverse its opinion of that same ten-year old’s ability to know right from wrong? He touches a breast without permission, and he is a perpetrator, he touches a breast with permission and he is suddenly a victim?
3. For all the people saying the counselor was wrong to report him, look at it this way… What if this happened five times a year, with different students each time, in that school district and the teachers, counselors, principals, etc. never reported any of these incidents over the past ten years. That is fifty incidents that went unreported. What would happen to those school faculties if, years later, it was discovered that 50 ten-year-olds had touched the breasts of their teachers/counselors over the past decade? What would the DA be saying and doing? Would he be finding those students, some of whom are not adults, and throwing the book at them for sexual assault? I doubt it. Instead, I think there would likely be an investigation as to why all this “sexual activities” were happening in this school district, and it never got reported. For those reasons I think that the counselor was right in making the report. She had no choice. Sweeping it under the rug would have only made HER look bad, and she seemed to have not done anything wrong.
4. So, this brings me to my last point. Did the ten-year-old do anything wrong? Yes. Should he have charges filed against him? No. What should happen to him? Short suspension and that’s it, at the most. What should happen to the counselor? Nothing, other than making sure that she never counsels this kid again, never hug a child again, etc. She needs to become hypersensitive anytime she is with a child. She came within a whisker of being accused herself of the sexual assault. It could have come down to a “he said/she said” scenario and who usually gets believed in those situations? The child.
The bottom line is this, as PFRs, we are always “walking on eggshells” and needing to be aware of our surroundings and situations so as not to give anyone any reason to think we are doing something wrong. So, I think that anyone living on the registry would actually be glad and supportive that this counselor took the steps immediately to ensure that she would not get accused of something that could have very, very easily gone the other way and changed her life forever.
Mig:
You’re entitled to your opinion, but there are way too many what-ifs, might-haves, and maybes in your scenarios. All of them failing to address the most likely – it was a simple accidental brush.
Going by the story, the counselor reported the incident out of anger, not fear. The idea that she may eventually be considered a child molester is a product of your imagination, not hers. There’s no indication that anything of that sort ever crossed her mind. Ditto, your assessment that this kid and all other students at this school will become serial molesters without police intervention. Many of the restrictions and obligations imposed on registrants that we oppose are the products of the same thought patterns, phantasms, and predictions that defy logic.
If I’ve learned nothing else as a registrant over the last few years, it’s that appeasing the insanity of registry proponents not only accomplishes nothing, it actually diminishes efforts to abolish the registry. The elimination of sexual abuse – an admirable goal shared by all – is a difficult enough to attain. It will be impossible when criminalizing accidental conduct like this, particularly when conducted by someone so young, under the logic that it would produce outcomes that are about as likely as finding Amelia Earhart.
Chew the kid out. Maybe in front of his friends if believing he was put up to it by them or was showing out. Make him clap a few erasers (or whatever the modern equivalent is). Put a note in his file in case there’s a repeat. If he did it again after all that, then have a cop put a scare into him. And if these accidents keep repeating, then take drastic action.
But pressing full charges in this instance is absolutely insane and indicative of a person that lacks the patience and temperament to be an elementary school janitor, let alone counselor or teacher. A person that hypersensitive would be better suited to a work-from-home job, as would most of society.
It doesn’t sound like it was an “accidental brush” by the fact that her breast was grabbed AND she had to remove his hand.
“She said she “turned sideways to give a side hug,” the letter says, and the child put one arm around her shoulder and with the other hand “reached and grabbed her left breast.” The counselor said she removed his hand and he walked away, the letter says.”
I cannot find in any of the news stories where she did this out of anger. Matter of fact, the only indication of motive in any of the news stories is by the boy’s family in which they are implying racism.
What would the headline read if she did not report the incident? “School Counselor’s Breast Grabbed In Front Of Class and She Does Nothing”.
First, there wouldn’t have been a story or headline if the incident weren’t reported to LE.
Second, no one ever said to do nothing, myself included.
Third, we can debate all day whether it was accidental or not, but that would be pointless. In the end, the issue is whether or not the counselor overreacted and law enforcement involvement was warranted. I still argue she did.
The end result of hypersensitivity is always either anger or fear. Hard to believe that this woman was left terrorized and permanently emotionally scarred from this incident, deliberate or not. That leaves anger to account for her response. Either way, I remain convinced that she and society would be better served to a work from home job.
You keep making assumptions.
1. How do you know that that there would have not been a story is she had not reported the incident?
2. How do you know that “no one” ever said do nothing?
3. Why is it “pointless” to debate whether the incident was pointless?
I disagree with you that the issue is whether or not the counselor over reacted… the issue is whether or not the boy grabbed her breast intentionally or not. If the counselor was frantic or screaming or calm or showing any other form of emotion, it does not add to, nor take away from the issue. In this case, look at the facts. Don’t look at the emotions. Facts do not care about feelings.
You use hyperbole statements to justify your opinion. Is it an absolute fact that “The end result of hypersensitivity is always either anger or fear”, or did you just say that in attempt to state your opinion as fact without any true evidence proving that statement? Is there not a single situation in history where there is any other result of hypersensitivity? How about worry? Perhaps that could be an end result of hypersensitivity. Did you think that this counselor is worried about what would happen to her if she did not make the report?
You imply that “this woman was left terrorized and permanently emotionally scarred from this incident”. Where do you get that idea?
Where in any report or news story does it describe her as angry? I cannot find a single story describing her emotions.
The counselor claims her breast was grabbed and she reported it.
I think it would be wrong for her career to end because a ten year old boy did something wrong to her, and it would also be wrong for the ten year old boy’s future to be negatively affected if he didn’t do it.
All that being said, how many times have there been stories on sites like this one, ACSOL, NARSOL, etc. about an adult being accused of something by a minor, the adult denying it, the adult being prosecuted, and the adult ending up on the registry?
If there was ever a story in which those of us forced to register would sympathize with the adult, I think it would be this one.
I think we should rally around her and thank her for standing up to the notion that a child can “do no wrong” and making the report.
I see hypersensitivity coming from you regarding you being convinced that the counselor did this out of anger and that she should work from home. She didn’t grab a body part, the boy did. She didn’t, by every account, freak out… she reported it.
Again, facts don’t care about your feelings.
The fact is, none of us were there so we really do not know what happened. For privacy, most school do not allow cameras in classrooms. With no other real witnesses, it comes down to “He said, she said”.
Working around kids is always going to be a risk and many teachers have started to retire or quit. Between school shootings, accusations made by kids or being blamed for your students failing, it takes a really dedicated person to be a teacher these days. And don’t even get me started on being a school bus driver and what they have to put up with.
And yes, sometimes the teachers are the problem so not throwing it all on the students. It is hard to judge sitting at our computer based on the evidence from both sides blaming the other. When I worked in Homicide, if there were no witnesses, we only had one side of the story, and that is only if we had a suspect, and if we got them to talk.
Cherokee Jack,
Well said, as always.
Those working with children do indeed put themselves at risk in many ways. I think it would be safer to always lean toward being too cautious than not. In this case, the counselor made the report and has not said another word about it. She seems to have followed the protocol required by law. If her reporting the incident was wrong, or illegal, or immoral, or unethical (as many people have implied), I would like to know why. Would law enforcement ever tell a teacher to NOT report a student touching a teacher’s breast? Would a school board instruct teachers and counselors that it is NOT a form of assault when ten year old boys touch their breasts? If that is the case, then let’s just line up the boys and let them get a “handful” every day. That is an absurd idea, but I think it makes my point.
If ten year old boys are allowed to do it, what about eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen years old, etc. boys? When is it wrong? Oh, at 18. Then they are an adult. Then it is sexual assault. “But your honor, I got away with it for the past 8 years, why is it wrong now?”
It is time we stop assuming a child is never wrong.
This case shows all the politicians and media fear mongering is working , the sheep of america are ready to believe any and every male that touches , bumps or looks at them must have deviant intentions , even a child of 10. Welcome to the new world
There is a huge self-contradiction within our legal system regarding children and sexual behavior.
On the one hand the system says children the age of this poor little boy are too intellectually and emotionally immature to give INFORMED consent to sexual contact of any kind. I agree with this view 100%.
But then on the other hand, when a child that age does anything an ADULT INTERPRETS AS INTENTIONAL SEXUAL MISCONDUCT, they suddenly have a level of culpability to be charged criminally and have their lives either destroyed outright or grotesquely altered before they even really start life.
For the longest time, there has been an insidious war waged against little boys in this country and it is beyond shameful. Too many male-hating ultra-feminists have shaped the narrative that male sexual deviance starts before said little boys even understand what sex is and what it’s all about. Some women complain men are not tender and emotional enough; not nurturing enough, but when a little boy shows genuine, pure affection and makes an honest mistake by not paying attention to where his hands are, the women then set out to utterly destroy the child in the exact manner this school counselor is doing.
What better way for ultra-feminists to pursue their agenda of destroying all male authority than to criminalize the male while he is still a child so that he grows up with no rights to speak of whatsoever?
I may be wrong, but I sincerely believe that if the child had been a little girl, nothing would have ever been said or if anything was said, it would have just been a reprimand to watch where she put her hands.
People please re; read the article !!
I don’t think anyone has a problem with her reporting the incident , however it also says SHE Said SHE wants to press charges against this kid . so SHE wants to see his life ruined ? That’s my issue with this not to mention its a he said she said situation , they say nothing about if there were any witnesses. Why was this counselor visiting the class room ? It says she removed his hand and he walked away. sounds like he didn’t think he did anything wrong or was I’m any kind of trouble. Then he was back at his desk talking to his friends when the TEACHER called him up to her desk and accused him.it sounds as there was no immediate out cry on the counselors part
They did actually in the new article. There was another teacher present but she said she didn’t see the encounter take place.
Is it just me, or is it inappropriate to question a 10 year old, get the police involved, pass judgement on the kid, suspend him, and have someone there trying to file charges against a ten year old for sexual assault-without having a parent of the minor present? They didn’t even call his parents! They just sent a note home with him………seriously?!
Sounds like a 4th-degree sexual assault to me (grabbing of breasts) !
Since this topic is attracting numerous comments, an update:
https://www.daytonatimes.com/community/education/family-of-boy-charged-with-cupping-school-worker-s-breast-plans-to-sue/article_50d828a8-6741-11ed-b49e-7bfeb800d8b1.html
Interesting the original report said the councilor was there to talk with the teacher the kid came up gave her the hug then went back to his seat to talk with friends the follow up makes it sound like the kid came into the room to give her a hug. And if the councilor was there to talk with the teacher why and how did the teacher not see this happen ? Did the councilor not make any sound of surprise , protest or outrage that she was unexpectedly touched in such a manner ? It all sounds fishy
This brings to mind my experience at school at age 13. I saw a fellow student appear to accidentally bump into a female custodian. What was odd was this boy apologized to her so profusely. It was odd because it was so unlike his typically ‘bad’ behavior. The woman glared at him and then got on with her job collecting the garbage.
At that moment I considered what I saw, and realized that he intentionally bumped right up to her front and groped her right breast. It lasted longer than a quick squeeze even. I have thought about these events many times in the past five decades, I replay what I saw in my mind. I have no idea how many other students witnessed it also, it was a crowded cafeteria.
I wish one of us reported it to the school. Maybe the school would have contacted his parents, maybe he would have been suspended. He at least needed a good talking to, to be told that his actions were not acceptable. As far as reporting to the police, beyond following what the law dictates, I am ambivalent.
What the hell does this have to do with THE CURRENT SITUATION?